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TLDR:

Can anyone point me at examples of the wayward doing the work in a visible way? Or give an example of what it would look like?

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This week in our therapy session, I presented a letter to my wife and our therapist that expressed some needs I have for joint therapy.

RECAP OF MY LAST POST IF YOU MISSED IT
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For anyone who missed my previous thread, I was having a hard time because since D-day my wife has been directing our conversations back to marriage issues she had (and kept from me) from before the affair. I strongly feel that this is her way of shirking responsibility for the affair and deflecting back to marriage issues. Which is basically what every cheater does when their affair is discovered. I was having an extra hard time because I felt that our therapist (who used to be my individual therapist) had sided with her.
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Long story short in my letter I made it clear that I wanted to stay on the affair until it's resolved, and that I don't believe the marriage or issues in it caused the affair. I made it clear that I believed that something deeper caused this to be an acceptable path for her to walk, and one of my asks was that I see some evidence that she is doing the deep introspective work to identify and address the real causes of those choices.

I am happy with the way they handled my feedback. One thing they presented is that she is doing individual therapy and that we are seeing improvements, and that those improvements are evidence of this deep introspective work happening. They asked me what I would expect to see from someone doing this kind of work.

I had a hard time answering that question because for me it's vague. All I said is that I would want to see that she revisit situations where she deliberately chose to cross lines, and identify the reasons she made those choices, and whenever those reasons point to something outside herself that she keep digging until she reaches the core reason.

Thats the best I could come up with at the time.

Can anyone point me at examples of the wayward doing the work in a visible way? Or give an example of what it would look like step by step?

I want to understand this better for myself, and I want to make sure I'm not being unreasonable with her.

Can't bring much to the table right now, because I did not see enough to say I am satisfied with her.

I can say what I'd need to see:

- She does not avoid or pretend "all is fine", she brings it up herself and show me she is caring to safeguard the relationship, that is not only on me while she sweeps the wounds she caused under the rug.
- Daily work with body, mind and character to understand, acknowledge and work to change the character flaws that brought her to cheat (low self worth, people pleasing, external validation etc)
- Understanding what emotions I still carry for the very reason she can see me around her everyday. Even if they are scars and I do not care anymore, it would maybe change my mind about her if she shows me she understand or feel the weight of what she condemned me to carry for the rest of my life (at least for the rest of my life that I chose to spend with her. I can always remove the issue by leaving her and divorcing, disappear from my existence so I have not to remember who you truly are).

I see progress only in one aspect, so she is putting work in this, but I cannot feel is nearly enough to change my stance.

"Wayward: The Work"
By foreverlabeled

You'll find this in the Healing Library under the "recovery/ reconciliation" section.

On a personal note, I started following foreverlabeled's journey here right from the start. She drew me in like few others, and while we were both staff members we became good friends. It's a long post but extremely insightful, heartfelt and truly worth the read. I'd also suggest printing it out and giving it to your wife.

"Admitting it vs. Getting it vs. Owning it vs. Living it"

I also put in a request to the Mods to bring this thread back from sleep. You'll find it in the Wayward forum once they do.

daddydom was another WS whom I closely followed. He's a good man for whom I have tremendous affection and respect.

Unhinged noted a great link.

And while my wife read some here, I don’t know that she read that particular link.

I can say, even before I found SI or read one book on infidelity/relationship issues, my wife owned it all. She absolutely blamed the M during the A, but she realized any issues we had, none of them were helped by her turning to someone OUTSIDE the M.

So, in my house, the work started with my wife owning all of her choices.

Then her work was understanding the esteem and boundary stuff from childhood that followed her into adulthood.

As I recently noted, she wasn’t able to fully change her conflict avoidance stuff (but she still works at it), but she knew better about boundaries, which made that an easy change. Self-esteem, and confidence was something we both needed to work on after the A, and that was visible work as we improved there.

The M was repaired along the way.

We did address M issues, once we both chose to try and team up to save it.

Our communication was the biggest pre-A issue, and that is where IC and MC helped us the most.

The other biggest M repair, was we stopped taking and started giving instead (sounds easy or subtle, but it really changed everything going forward).

To me, your wife needs to own it first, then show some level of effort to be better and do better, and you can also tell her you are willing to work on the old M issues as soon as you see some progress from her.

No M problems ever deserve infidelity as an answer.

I recommend figuring out your requirements for R and seeing if your WS will sign on. If they won't, perhaps they can come up with something else that will meet your requirements, but if you can't negotiate something truly acceptable to both of you, great - you can go directly to D. Otherwise, you can monitor them for 3-6 months and commit to R for yourself if they are (is?) consistent in meeting your requirements.

The requirements need to be observable and measurable. That way it's easy to monitor progress and make adjustments as you go along.

Common requirements include:

NC - no contact with ap; if ap initiates contact, report to BS and together decide how to respond

Transparency - BS has passwords to e-mail, voice-mail, phones, etc.; WS keeps BS informed of whereabouts, activities, and companions at virtually all times

Honesty - WS answers BS's questions when they're asked, although sometimes a break is necessary, sometimes an answer is best deferred to MC session, etc., no more lies.

IC for WS - to change the thoughts and feelings that supported the A, with signed release that enables C to talk with BS about WS's goals and progress (so the BS can make sure WS's IC isn't being lied to).

IC for BS - for support - and for resolving any internal issue that comes up

MC - to help communications between the partners. Be careful to avoid MCs who don't deal with the A first. An MC who starts off trying to identify systemic problems probably won't help. You need someone who will help resolve the trauma before going into systemic problems.

Some (Most?) people have individual requirements - my W had to arrange dates for us on a weekly basis and must initiate sex sometimes. What do you want from your W?

And R is a joint endeavor - if one of you hides objections to the other's requirements, you sabotage R. And you have to see your WS as a human being of worth equal to your own to make R work. You don't have to see your WS as a human being whose worth is equal to your own, but you sure can't R, except with an equal.

Sometimes requirements need to be renegotiated as time goes on. A number of things I wanted at the beginning faded in importance. I agreed to wear a ring at my W's request. I hate wearing a ring; since I didn't cheat without the ring, I asked my W to withdraw her request.

The only thing I can add to Sisson's great advice....is that it is kind of a "know it when you see it" thing. And, will be specific to you as a couple. I gave my FWH a list similar to Sisson's. I had him organize the MC for us. I went, but I needed him to be the one responsible for making the appointments. I did a post-nuptial agreement. It did take him a little bit of time to get out of the FOG and recognize the gravity of what he'd done....and be grateful that I gave him a chance. But, he did those things. He promised to fix us....and I promised to work on it for a period of time with no guarantees.

For me, while I was crashing out, not eating, barely functioning....my FWH stepped in. There were 100's of little things he did that he'd never done before. Concrete things that showed he was there. Prior to DDay, he was pretty absent in the running of a household and raising our kid. I was the default there. He did dishes, laundry, made meals. In the moment, it was hard to see...but after awhile....the concrete-ness of it....I couldn't doubt. He also grew more emotionally present with the help of IC/MC. He wanted desperately to run away from what he caused, but very uncomfortably leaned into me. After some IC, he felt strong enough to listen to my pain and own it. And, then we could work together.

I'm sorry you're here. Hang in there.

Old wounds

So, in my house, the work started with my wife owning all of her choices.

It sounds like your wife is a bit of an outlier. My wife has said the words "I take full responsibility" from the start. But to me it looks like she isn't actually taking those actions. She might be starting to really do that now, but for the past 18 months it's been all about her complaints with the marriage - which is essentially her being upset at me since I'm the only other person in the relationship.

To me, your wife needs to own it first, then show some level of effort to be better and do better, and you can also tell her you are willing to work on the old M issues as soon as you see some progress from her.

She is making efforts, and I see genuine change. My concern is how do I know she is really addressing the core reasons that an affair was acceptable to her.
sisoon

The requirements need to be observable and measurable.

This is why I brought it up in MC. The feedback they gave me was that I was not asking for something distinct and measurable. She is doing many things that fall into this category. She is having better boundaries, and showing me she is protecting our relationship. She is being honest as far as I know, and she seems to genuinely sorry for hurting me.

IC for WS - to change the thoughts and feelings that supported the A

My problem, and also their problem, is how can one tell that the "thoughts and feelings that supported the A" are really being addressed? What external things do you watch for? I could make a long list of positive things she is doing, but do those translate to no more affairs? How do I know the deeper work is happening? She goes to therapy like one to two times a month, and is so busy most of the time that I seriously doubt she is working on this stuff on her own time.

with signed release that enables C to talk with BS about WS's goals and progress (so the BS can make sure WS's IC isn't being lied to).

I'm going to put this in the zero percent possible camp. My wife was enraged even at the idea that I would want to know what she talks about in therapy. Theres no way she would go for this so thats not an avenue I can go down to get resolution.
Ladybugmaam

is that it is kind of a "know it when you see it" thing.

I don't know how to communicate this as something I want to see from her. She has said many times that what I want is undefined and vague. Know it when you see it is just not going to work for her. I've got to find a way to communicate it, or let it go. But I don't think I can let it go. My nervous system is still on alert, and I don't see that changing without genuine resolution. No rug sweeping, or pretending for me.

Theevent-

She is making efforts, and I see genuine change. My concern is how do I know she is really addressing the core reasons that an affair was acceptable to her.

Universally, be it secular or religious — cheating is wrong — does your wife still justify her choices to cheat?

Efforts and change don’t mean much if she is still finding what she did as "acceptable."

If she currently feels bad for those choices, then her work is telling you why she think she failed you, failed the M and turned away from the relationship.

If she is asking you to fix the M first, that’s not a lot to work with.

The work is her addressing the rationalizing she did to excuse what she did and figuring out why she justified it.

In my situation, my wife also understood she needed to lead the way back, her line was, "I broke it, I need to be the one to fix it."

She was partly right, I did need to help on the rebuild, I did need to give her room and time to make the changes she needed.

Poor boundaries and lousy esteem were key elements my wife worked on, but she knew those were the things she needed — no IC told her.

The simplest way to find out what changes are taking place is to ask her questions.

Does she understand what issues lead her down Infidelity Lane?

Why did she choose infidelity?

Is she certain she will never do this again, and why?

If she cannot answer these questions, then she is not a good candidate for R and it may be time to adjust your plans for the future.

You describe some behavior that seem big hindrances to R.

Blame-shifting: if she does her work, I expect you'll find many of the problems become non-problems. Anything she didn't bring up pre-A is her problem. You can't read her mind. You had no way of knowing of a problem she saw unless she brought it up.

The signed release: rage is not what I'd expect from a good candidate for R. I'd expect some negotiation, with anything connected with her A being an OK topic. Where was the C in this? Ours said she'd answer simple questions, but if I wanted to dig deep, she said she'd only do it in a joint session. Without a release, your W's IC can't even return a phone call to you without your W's permission, although that may differ between certifications. Social workers can't ethically return a phone call without permission.

*****

What is she not showing you that you want? How do you know she's not doing what is missing for you?