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Dr. Soolers- the fact that she’s lost nothing yet and that she is not acting particularly remorseful IS eating away at me. Sometimes I’m not sure she isn’t the soulless type of cheater that you describe. Obviously if I decide that is true, it’s the single life for me.

Its a hard assessment to make. To be honest, I'm not sure anyone can ever know. That's why personally I'm a huge fan of red lines that cannot be crossed and cannot be forgiven.

I'd suppose even if my former colleagues partner heard a recording of that conversation we had, he'd worm his way out of it. 'I was just talking shit with the guys'. 'I didn't mean a word'. 'I was just showing off' etc. People can talk themselves into accepting even the most degrading of things.

For my money, 5 years of clandestine meetups with your sons coach is about as soulless as you can get.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 11:04 AM, Tuesday, March 31st]

This seems pretty important:

Frank- I’m sure this is a combination of those reasons. It is her desire to back me off and maintain control of this whole situation that I’ve never understood before and which scares me most. Since that is still there, I don’t see her changing.

Is she getting advice from anywhere? I wish she’d be helped to understand that she needs to let go of controlling the outcome, and that doing so, as you have pointed out, is only frustrating you and wasting the opportunity you are giving her.

There’s a book called How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair that she could read, among many others. Or you could print this out for her (without letting her know about this website): https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/recovery/what-every-ws-needs-to-know/

It’s still early days as others have said.

On another topic: back in the day, one of your first red flags was the ridiculous amount of activity between them on your phone records. That’s hard evidence that it was more than just sex, just saying. You don’t need a noticeable amount of activity if all you have to say is "are we still on for Thursday?" or whatever. There’s not much you can do to steel yourself for when you have to hear her say she loved him, but it’s probably coming, and you might want to think about what your follow up questions are going to be.

[This message edited by Letmebefrank at 2:35 PM, Tuesday, March 31st]

Just from what you have written here, it seems like you are tending to her like an invalid, she is dribbling out information that is more and more soul destroying with each new fact, while the kids and every other person in your life is in the dark. That seems untenable. Are you still working? How are you holding it all together? What are you doing for your own mental well being? If this pattern continues you are going to end up hating her and nowhere to turn. Why not let the family in and get some help?

The song "No Matter What" by Badfinger reminds me of your situation.

She shown you what she is numerous times throughout your relationship. But, you continue on in a relationship with her just to rinse and repeat. Time to break this cycle.

Peace to you!

You will dwell on the why if the affair had an emotional component. It did. There is no way that it didn’t that wood be reasonable within the context of your marriage.

You have so much chaos around you that checking off items as knowns is useful.

As I hsve contemplated this thread, I return to an oft commented on theme here and on like sites dealing with marital treason and that is tolerance. Put another way, what is your tolerance for the actual treason and its exhausting aftermath? This concept of tolerance varies wildly from person to person. I tolerated far too much for far too long. My post Dday thoughts and actions were strongly influenced by a number of factors such as being a younger husband and father with elementary school aged children, my mal-adapted confrontation style due to growing up in an absolutely chaotic and sometimes abusive home. I also smoked a lot of "hopium" and "copium" during the almost ten years that I tolerated her betrayal and remorselessness. It cost me. Greatly. But in the end I learned that I was throwing my tolerance into a bottomless pit. But I did learn and was then able to move on with a lot of help from a good therapist who helped knock the "white knight syndrome" out of my psyche.

That said, others have not tolerated much at all, having reached the end of their tolerance very shortly after Dday (or maybe right after), while others have tolerated much more for far longer before reaching the end of their rope. I have seen people here move quickly and decisively while others linger for years. Sadly, some just continue on in this status quo and live in an emotional deficit as their vitality is drained from them day after day. As one WW commented about her BH years after Dday, "His smile no longer reaches his eyes".

There is a universal truth though, everyone pays. Everyone. The only question is how much and for how long.

Ive said it before, everyone deals with marital treason differently. We try to measure our internal endurance guages at a time of extreme stress. Funny thing is though, that those guages can give false readings at times like these and really mislead us because they were never meant to help work through these extraordinary circumstances. Many have described it as their world being turned upside down.

Sir, only you know when you hace reached the end of your tolerance. When enough is enough. My hope is that at the end of that time, there is enough vitality left for you to rebuild, with or without her.

I wish you well.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 9:59 PM, Tuesday, March 31st]

Dr. S- yes, soulless, and the lack of much believable/realistic explanation makes it worse. I’m doing my best to guard against being the person that falls for whatever explanation is given.

Frank- I brought up what I think is her need to control the relationship/conversation, etc. today and explained that she has to accept that she is not the victim of anything in this case. It seemed to crack her shell a bit and she actually tried (I think) to honestly answer some of my questions about her affair. She actually started to admit that there was an emotional aspect to it.
The red flag I took from it though was that it is starting to sound like she was the one who pursued this relationship and he just took what he was getting. (Apparently she was the one initiating most of the contact as time went on.) This makes me worried that he may have cut things off because she got a little too attached and she will still be looking for love elsewhere, as I’m just the safe, consolation prize.
And thanks for the tip about the post from this site, I sent that to her about a week ago. It hasn’t helped yet but she has read it a few times, so who knows.

Long Sad- I’m a semi-retired old guy with an easy full time job. Our kids are great, I stay in good shape and don’t have a lot of stress other than this nightmare. I let her family in on about 75% of what has been going on with her and they try to keep in touch with her but she is really keeping them at arm’s length. I think she is too embarrassed to get into it with any of her family. I think her family believes I will keep her safe, and they’re right, for now. If I decide to make a move toward separation, they’ll be fully involved because I’m not going to just leave her alone. Not a white knight, just not a bad guy either.

Shark- agreed, the information about the emotional part of things is just starting to come out.

Doble- the limits of my tolerance are approaching, but I feel that I’m at a bit of an advantage in that, I can pull the chord at any time (months not years).
Your advice about guarding against complacency is well-taken. I’m not going back to being the guy that worries about what his wife is up to again. I wasted too many years doing that while she lied and snuck around. That’s what makes me think the end of my marriage is approaching, I just can’t see how trust is rebuilt after catastrophic destruction like this.

Again, I really want to thank everyone for the respectful, thoughtful and very helpful comments/advice. Therapy is ongoing but it’s only once a week and that is an eternity at a time like this. Peace to you all.

Recovering from infidelity is a very long process, irrespective of if you divorce or reconcile.
I can share that I ended my relationship and thought I was "over it" about 2 years later, only to have the good sense to seek therapy about 15 years later to finally deal with the PTSD infidelity gifted me. In retrospect I don’t think I was capable of dealing with the PTSD for maybe the first 2-5 years, but had I recognized it earlier I could have been rid of it within 10 years. Some things simply need time to mature, slow down, become recognizable.
Not saying you should wait 10 years, nor that you will take 10 years. But rather making two points: This takes time, and there is recovery you need to make irrespective of if you remain married or not.

As a young cop the veteran who trained me made an astute comment: He told me to notice than no matter what, the very vast majority of people would excuse or mitigate anything wrong they did. Like nearly everybody I stopped speeding would comment about just following the flow of traffic, I should focus on "real" crime, they had an emergency or whatever. Wife abusers would explain – in detail – why they had no option but to beat her senseless. Burglars would whine about how everyone is insured and would get a new TV paid by the insurance – basically doing them a favor. Heck… the worst I ever heard was the guy trying to convince me that 10 year old boys enjoyed getting oral from him, therefore no harm…

We do this too. I’m not losing weight because of my slow metabolism (something I can’t control) and it hasn’t got anything to do with the cake I allowed myself…

Your wife was capable of initiating, entering, and being in an affair. At each and every minute of time for all those years she KNEW it was wrong; knew it was damaging. I get it that she compartmentalized, that she never thought you would know and that she thought she would be able to keep this a secret all the time.
I get it also that when any semi-sane, normal person looks at all this they are thinking "WTF! How could she imagine all that?!"

Maybe your first evaluation might be if the above is "normal" thinking for your wife. Can she compartmentalize other things in life, does she show rich narcissist behavior, has she shown a two-sided moral compass on other things in general? Like… is she nice to kids but kicks kittens?

This is why – if this was an ongoing affair – I would be telling you as loudly as I could to expose it to all stakeholders. Like… We can imagine that back then when the affair was ongoing she would be thinking "Alas! In a fair world I would ride away into the sunset with my soulmate Mr WonderSex and live on lobster and steak for eternity, but the Evil Ogre my husband has me trapped with 3 kids, a mortgage and a planned holiday to Disney"
Once exposed – once you tell her she’s free to be with Mr WonderSex her soulmate and there is nothing holding her back… these compartments crumble fast. Fantasy becomes reality. Even if soulmate had left his wife for her then she realizes he too drinks beer while watching the Sunday game, farts and scratches his scrotum. Nobody is happy for her. Nobody thinks she’s justified in the affair…

But you aren’t dealing with an "active" affair. You are dealing with a wayward spouse that has been battling the justification of her affair for years internally, and now in some desperate attempt to save her marriage/status/lifestyle/reputation….

Frankly – to expect a "real" why from her now is not realistic, because she’s not clear on the why herself… It might take months of therapy.

I suggested you give yourself a timeline – a deadline if you like.
Set yourself a goal for what YOU want, and what you can realistically get. Like… I personally think that within 30 days you have the "truth" on factual info. Things like when started, how carried through, when ended, ongoing contact, who knew, where, how…
Maybe even make it clear to her that her truths will be validated with a polygraph. Explain that it’s a tool for her benefit. If she passes it indicates honesty.

When that day comes – say the 20th of April – you can evaluate if you have a believable picture of the factual reality. You can evaluate with yourself it what you have is enough for you to decide there is no hope. You can then set yourself a new target and a new date. Like if on the 20th you believe you have the truth, then set the 1st of May as the deadline for a polygraph IF you want to remain married, or for the date where you have hired the attorney.

This is a marathon. The goal isn’t 46.145 yards wide and 2 yards ahead of you. The goal is 46.145 yards AHEAD of you, and your path towards it narrow. The pace and who you run with is up to you.

Thanks Big- Now that I’m looking for it, she’s always been able to fall asleep easily if something troubling was going on with the kids, we were having an argument, her father was sick, etc. But I’m not sure that is the same as compartmentalizing. In this situation though, she would bury it and move on in a minute if I let her.

The rationalizations have come already and are evolving, but I hope she’ll someday see the real reasons she did this. Even if it turns out she’s some kind of sex addict, at least she’ll have an answer, but I’ll be long gone.

I’m a bit embarrassed to admit it but I would take joy in seeing her bring her romantic dream scenario into the real world and have to live with this loser and his financial issues. As I mentioned though, I’m starting to get the feeling that she was the one pursuing things as time went on by calling him when he never called her. She does still show a little pulse of emotion when talking about him and I’m starting to feel that I’m the fallback plan. She may have been turned away and that’s why the affair ended (I think it has, for now.)

Either way, thanks for listening, again. I assume you were a cop in the US, not an easy job, especially these days. I knew there was something I liked about you.

There is an odd sense of justice, when they try to turn their stupid fantasy affair into a real relationship and watching it all burn down. Losing a great life by choosing a complete trashhole. I wouldn’t be embarrassed about it, I think most of us felt the same way when we watched that dumpster fire.

Regardless, from reading all your current posts, it’s obvious you’re made of stronger stuff than most. No matter what happens you’ll come out on top.

Thanks Oh, I hope you’re right.

She does still show a little pulse of emotion when talking about him and I’m starting to feel that I’m the fallback plan. She may have been turned away and that’s why the affair ended (I think it has, for now.)

You are the fall back plan and not just because she may have tried to shack up with this pos and he wasnt ready/willing, but because she could have taken her lascivious lifestyle and hit the road. Couldve left you and divorced you regardless of whether the pos was part of it or not. She could have straight up told you that this was the life she wanted and set up shop somewhere else, but she didnt. Know why (high probability)? Because you are the safe harbor. The responsible one. The one who believes that, regardless of the trucklosds of shyt piled onto you (thats exactly what years of marital treason represents), you will be the "adult in the room". She knows it and like so many other traitors, shes using that fact against you (among other manipulative tactics).

Just another sad fact of being with a morally bankrupt individual. Its a "gift" that keeps on giving.

Please understand that though I am commenting this on your thread, this is a very common phenomenon. Ive read similar accounts here and elsewhere where the faithful spouse is sweating bullets about doing the "right/best" thing, while the faithless keeps playing their sad sick games. Ive commented much the same on those threads.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 5:05 PM, Saturday, April 4th]

Doble- I agree with you. She was starting to admit emotional involvement with this guy and now went back to "the whole thing was just about the sex" (for 4 1/2 to 5 years).

Either way, I lose. I can’t see moving on with a wife who doesn’t work on a problem (even sex) with her husband before going outside for it. On the other hand, if she was looking for a relationship with this guy and it didn’t work out, then I’m the fallback.

Thanks, putting these ideas down makes it easier to figure out.

LookingForHonesty, your last comment pretty much sums it up.

I felt the same way with my wife (now ex-wife). She was getting ran through by another man on a regular basis and then coming home to me and making dinner. For a long time. How is that even possible? She was going back on a regular basis because she liked it and wanted it. She got emotionally involved very easily and very early on. She actually left me for the other guy because of that, the emotional and the sexual. Anyway, even if she stayed, either way I lose. Just like you said.

Having sex with another man for 5 years is a relationship of consistency and intimate intensity. It takes commitment to continue that for years. More commitment than they were giving us, their husbands, in the same department.

Even if there was a marital problem in the bedroom, love would motivate communication about it and trying creative or medical attempts to address it in whatever ways needed to help in that area. I wasn't given that dignity or consideration and I did not know we had a problem there. Many times this rhetoric is only brought up after being caught as a way to re-write the narrative and excuse or justify their behavior. It wasn't really ever a problem in the first place. They just have to deflect blame on us so we have to take the actual betrayal on the chin and also the blame for it because we weren't satisfying them sexually. Do not fall for that. They just can't bring themselves to say "I liked the intensity of tasting forbidden fruit and I did not care about you or our marriage in the process of getting jackhammered by another man."

I still tried to fix things and get both of us help and do the pick me dance. But ultimately I was the safe comfortable back up plan B choice. She left me as soon as the other man got out of his relationship and became an available option for her. It destroys you. But it is actually for the best to be away from someone who would do that to you in the first place. I am doing much better now. Life is better. I have pretty much recovered from it. We have both moved in. Time flies by anyway.

I know it's tough. But you will be ok. Do what is best for you to protect your heart and your peace and your dignity and your self respect.

Thanks Lightning, that was a lot of understanding and I appreciate it.

Today we had a bit of a breakthrough. She acknowledged that she felt an emotion similar to love for this guy and that she cared for him. She claims not to feel that anymore and sticks with her story that they stopped seeing each other in 2018. Oh, and she now admits that she was initiating things for the last few years and he was the one who broke it off with her. There was also some very insulting and demeaning commentary about me between the two of them that I’m sorry I asked about.

I’m convinced now, that she thought something more serious would come of the relationship and she would leave me for this guy. For some reason, he didn’t go for it. So she came back to me.
This new extent of her affair is so unexpected and shocking that I haven’t even been able to form questions yet. Our marriage therapist, who we had a session with tonight, seems to think the clarity is a good thing. I agree, it makes my decision easier.

This new extent of her affair is so unexpected and shocking that I haven’t even been able to form questions yet. Our marriage therapist, who we had a session with tonight, seems to think the clarity is a good thing. I agree, it makes my decision easier.

The trickle truth continues its downward spiral. Dadly, sometimes it takes "bottom of the barrel" revelations to prompt the betrayed to move forward. That said, Im sorry. It had to hurt yet again to hear all of this.

Just a reminder that a few days ago you were concerned that it was only physical. Now you are bothered that it might have been emotional too.
This is normal. You are in the discovery-phase and basically anything and everything you discover will be bothersome.

Have you set yourself a target and/or deadline?

I think we all need to realize that it's been a relatively short time that LookingForHonesty has learned just how far his WW went in regards to her relationship with her AP. If I recall, its been right at 2 weeks that he learned they had actual intercourse. It is fair that LFH is still in the fact-finding stage at this point. I am sure we are all frustrated with his WW in her continued trickle-truthing (no one more frustrated than LFH.) She's had years to process her actions and when faced with the all-too-expected consequences, attempted to take the easy way out so she didn't have to stand up and face said consequences.

LFH, I think you will soon reach the stage that you don't really care about her answers or the entire story. The details and her supposed motivations will no longer matter to you. You will soon grow tired of asking questions that she cannot fully answer in any way to your satisfaction. You are realizing you were her comfortable fall-back plan, her Plan B and safety net all rolled into one. You will have to make a choice whether you can continue a true relationship with her in any capacity going forward or is it all too much.

I think you will reach this stage in a relatively short time. You seem to have your shit together and have a clear idea just how much your WW destroyed the marriage through her actions, deception and gas lighting.

I would suggest at the next MC (it's every 2 weeks, and you just had one a couple of days ago, right?) that you ask your counselor whether she's equipped to provide assistance in counseling through a collaborative divorce, and if not, can the MC refer y'all to a MC that can counsel couples through a relatively easy divorce. Inform your WW you have had consultations with a family-lawyer and you are ready proceed with a divorce and tell her she needs to hire her own attorney to begin negotiating the divorce. You need to know how much she is asking for and what is the true financial "butcher bill" cost of her affair. You already have a good idea what the emotional cost is.

You need information to begin planning financially and future living arrangements, the biggest one is how much she will be asking for in alimony, if any, and what the 2 of you are going to do with the family house. Do you or your wife want to keep the house? How will the one staying buy the other one out of the house? How does the divorce affect pensions, 401(k) and IRA withdrawals, et al? So many questions that you do not currently have answers to that you need to get in order to make a decision. Heck, you may ultimately think "it's cheaper to keep her"- I highly discourage this decision. You've lived the past 7-9 years (?) in suspicion, you know it's cost - do you want to live with her and the "full truth" until you die? I don't know about you but that makes my skin crawl.

Like I said, give it another 2 weeks. Let everything continue to settle in your lives. Your WW needs continued treatment and therapy. Run your thoughts and plans by your therapist and your attorney. You need to continue to detach from her. Stay in separate bedrooms, stay scarce around the house, go out at night with either friends or by yourself. You may want to start looking for different living arrangements either temporarily or permanently. I would not bother hiding this fact from your WW either- leave your home computer open so she can see you're researching apartments (she won't know if it's for you or her.) Try to avoid deep discussions with your WW, you will learn more contact just equals more hurt. Soon, her thoughts and answers simply will not matter to you. Let your anger turn into indifference, it will be slow but you'll get there.

Stay strong.

LFH, I'm late to the party and since I'm 7+ years along my own journey, my perspective has changed as I've grown and healed. I understand the need for justice but disagreed with labeling it as "punishment" as that needlessly reduces a complex and nuanced concept. I'd like to think of it as natural consequence. Besides, it's why we have the idea of punitive and compensatory damages, a principle that dates back to the concept of Weirguild. That being said, I don't think it's your job to punish your WW, but to always do what is best for you, letting the universe sort itself out for your WW. If she is embarrassed by the revelation of her affair, that's a her problem, not a you problem. You were not put on thisxearth to subsidize the terrible choices made by others. Okay, now tcircumstances. Think one of the best ways to communicate something that is important is through story. Stories can often be the vessels that carry our most important truths, so I hope you'll forgive me for telling mine.

I grew up in a very, and I mean very, traumatic family situation, so I was left with some pretty deep wounds, which I thought I had dodged until midlife. One of these resulted in me being a fixer, and boy was I good at it. So, when my M fell apart, I stepped up and tried to fix it, at least at first. Thankfully, despite some shitty advice from MC, I found some good books and started reading. Then I found this place, and together, those resources helped me immensely. I silently gave my WW 6 months to change, and I meant radical, crawl across a parking lot level change, or I would pull the plug. I never told her, since I knew she was performative by nature.

During that time, I continued the work I had begun since Dday1, but this time I added the element of detaching to it. I remember a documentary by Dyer on USMC training at Paris Island. The salient takeaway was that it involved the erasure of a civilian identity and the recreation of a new concept of self with the USMC as the core. I never experienced this in the Canadian Army as we have a different training model. But my understanding.is what the USMC approach does is essentially rewrite an individual's sense of self to the point that being ejected from the corps results in an existential crisis whereby they are left as a black sheet, no longer a marine and no longer the person they were.

This is what happened to me in my M. In an effort to fix my trauma, I was determined to do family right and give my W and kids the best life possible. So, I became a husband and father, and I was committed to not screwing that up. And I was good at it, but the price was the erasure of my base identity. The interesting and likeable person I once was once was became supplanted by the roles I took on. So, when Dday1 arrive, I collapsed, my entire identity erased, leaving only a blank sheet (I didn't know about the physical aspect of my WW'S cheating yet). My answer to this total failure of my life's purpose was to begin planning my suicide. And let me tell you, my military training came in handy. I poured over maps, made a list of equipment I would need to make it look like an accident, created a primary plan and then, if unsuccessful, a secondary one to ensure the mission objective. Looking back, I am still filled with a feeling of intense shame that I had fallen so far, but that was then. Now, I am in a very solid place and will never again let outside factors determine my worth.

What really changed things for me was focusing on rediscovering and rebuilding the interesting person I was prior to M. It wasn't easy to retrain myself to put myself first. I had to force myself to consider what I actually wanted in any given situation rather than sacrifice for the sake of everyone else. I started going to the gym 3-4 times a week for 2 hour sessions. I took myself out for a pint, just for the pleasure of it. I went away to visit friends and rekindled old hobbies, all in an effort to rebuild an identity apart from my WW and my roles. People commented that it was nice to have me back...

This behaviour prompted considerable anxiety in my WW and she addressed it with her IC, who responded, " He's detaching from you", which was accurate. She wepy, not for me but for her loss of me as a functionary. Prior to this behaviour, my WW assumed that I would always default to my role as fixer, and why wouldn't she? I had been doing that for almost 30 years. I had trained her to expect no less.

Now, here is the kicker in my story. The more I grew, the stronger I became, and the stronger I became, the less attractive I found my WW. I felt worthy of more, and I looked at my WW, not through the lens of three decades of M, but as she actually was, a person who had never actually been there for me, a person who could not experience authentic emotion let alone express it, a person who was willing to destroy a family for a fantasy. So, I pulled the plug.

Now, when it comes to my EXWW, IDFAF. I've hit the stage of indifference (mostly) and I live a contented existence. My adult kids live with me full-time and I have a very satisfying career. I can retire in the next 6 years if I want to and survive on my pensions. My EXWW is getting married this summer to someone she just met and there may have been some overlap between this current relationship and her previous "it's complicated" guy, so I can only assume she hasn't done the work on herself. But not my shit, not my pile. I do me; she can do her.

As for me, I am content. I don't use happy as a benchmark, as it is a feeling and those are transitory. I prefer contentment as it is a frame of mind, something separate from one's circumstances.

I hope this post helps in even a small way. Sometimes just knowing others are in the same room can help ease the difficulty. But mostly, I hope that you land on a path that will take you to a destination that is authentically yours. Good luck.

Yes, the last day or so has been a bottom that I was never expecting. Until now, as silly as it sounds, I was hoping there would be some miracle that allowed me to move forward as her husband.

Now I know there’s no miracle, no hope. The betrayal was complete. I really valued my marriage, my intact family, showing my kids what commitment and loyalty means, doing what everyone says are the right things that will earn you a good life.

Our marriage counselor wants to figure out why it happened. I’m not sure I care now. It happened because she wanted it to happen. She pursued it. She probably pushed the relationship too hard with this guy and that’s why he broke it off with her. She’s more of a stranger to me now.