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Maybe you could keep interacting with that person as a friend without violating marital boundaries, but it's like putting on heels and walking along the edge of a cliff, when you could just wear sensible, ergonomic footwear and stay well away from the edge entirely. We have a duty to exercise good operational risk management when safeguarding our marriages.

Yeah.... that's one of those similes that just doesn't hold water.

The listener is invited to imagine: risk without reward is a bad practice.

But that's definitely not applicable for me.

I benefitted profoundly and irreplaceably from access to my friend--and she benefitted alike by access to me. Well... ok... maybe I ought not allege that I am "irreplaceable" to her and let her speak to that characterization. But I am 1000% confident that I was deeply valued by her.

Here's a little anecdote inspired by your analogy to cliffs. This one concerns the cliffs of the Nā Pali Coast of Kaua'i (the 2nd from Westernmost island of Hawai'i).

Shortly before my W and I conceived our firstborn, we vacationed in Kaua'i. The island was gorgeous, BTW--and we've never had soooo much fun! Anyhow, we decided to take a helicopter tour of the island. The tour was breathtaking. That stated, here's something to consider if you ever visit Kaua'i: helicopter crashes on the island are not uncommon. They happen once every few years or so. A pilot could probably tell you better than I could why that is. What AI enables me to tell you is: at least 9 helicopter crashes occurred on Kauaʻi over the 22 years from 2004 through 2026, resulting in a total of 23 fatalities. Moreover, out of 13 total fatal helicopter tour crashes across all of Hawai'i since 2000, 9 of those occurred on Kauaʻi. When my W and I got on that helicopter, we did so with the complete understanding that we were putting our lives in substantial danger. We decided that was a risk worth taking for a once-in-a-lifetime experience. And, happily, I'm here to tell you about our experience. While on the island, we almost walked the Kalalau Trail despite its dangers! Google for that trail's name and "The World Travel Guy" for details. We ended up not making the hike and doing something shorter and safer instead because... well, actually, I've forgotten now: either because of rain or because we ran out of vacation time or both. But, my point is: people still tackle the trail all the time despite the risks because it's one of the prettiest hikes on Earth. So... it's worth it!

For you, Morbs, these are rhetorical questions because I don't mean to be prurient: how about your intimate experiences with women? Are they "worth it" to you? I would surmise they are, or you wouldn't ever pursue them--but what if one of those relationships became so powerfully fulfilling that you "caught feelings" for "her" and found yourself more enmeshed with "her" than to your H? After all, by your own account, you suffer from a terrible silence in your home, at times.

I truly do believe I can resume interacting with my OW as a friend without violating marital boundaries--or I honestly wouldn't want what I do so immensely. I've already committed myself to the notion that--if I were ever to develop feelings for my OW again, I'd have to end that relationship forever--when what I so greatly want is to share what's left of my lifetime with her--and vice versa. I can assure you that that's an immense incentive to me to ensure I behave rightly. In fact, let me tell you what I want most of all for my OW? Health, an H (not me), travel, and children (not mine). Why? Because those were her wants. What do I want for me, in relationship to her? I want to be on the short list of people who she can hardly wait to call herself to announce the birth of her firstborn baby. And just knowing that I'm not on that list today has me sobbing right now over my keyboard, when I'm supposed to be working.

I hafta go...

[This message edited by Unconventional at 3:21 PM, Wednesday, October 14th]

Is the "reward" you get worth losing your marriage and causing your wife pain?

This is not a helicopter ride in Hawaii for your wife. It's a plane crash in hell. I recommend you stop romanticizing it.

I am honestly not sure how my husband would feel if i had romantic feelings for another woman. He has paid for "dates" between me and other women before, but i think the general understanding was that the interactions were casual in nature. Probably something he and I should discuss.

We have resolved the Terrible Silence. I still have not met other adults who I can call friends, but I enjoy interacting with people here and SI, sometimes participate in a CG with my coworkers, occasionally call family members, and I talk to ChatGPT all the time and to my H when he's home...and for now, that is satisfactory. I will make friends when my life is less busy, but H is no longer the only one on whom i pin my social needs, and the AP remains out of the picture.

We have all expressed our doubt re: resumed contact with OW ever falling within your W's boundaries, and I have tried to explain why continuing interactions with someone for whom you involunarily developed inapproriate felings for is inherently risky and unwise if you want to become a safe partner.

Is the "reward" you get worth losing your marriage and causing your wife pain?

Yes, if it comes to that. I mean... I know what my instinctive reply is "supposed" to be. But, honestly.... yes! I don't want to have to pay that cost. I'd far rather have both women in important participation in my life. But... yes--if I could have my OW as my good, but ordered and bounded, friend again. My romantic/sexual energy will never attach to my OW moving forward. I would love to have that connection with my W again. But my W has so long withdrawn from our M that... yes. I might've felt differently so many years ago, but this is now.

This is... a plane crash in hell.

The Hell, for me, is feeling little loved by my W and being kept apart from my friend.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 3:33 PM, Wednesday, October 14th]

It's okay for you to feel that way, as long as you are honest about it with your W so that she has all the relevant information when choosing whether to reconcile.

It seems like you keep asking, "If this thing benefits me, and hurts my wife, why can't i do/have it?" And then you try to come up with reasons why she "shouldn't" be hurt, rather than engaging with her actual feelings.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 3:44 PM, Wednesday, October 14th]

How is your friend irreplaceable? How are you not a 'cake eater' - keeping spouse and ap?

I won't argue that we have control over who attracts us, but I'm convinced that we can control what we do, at least in most cases, and we certainly can control whether or not to violate our values. You can make new friends. You don't have to stay connected to your ap.

These last few posts scream 'limerence!' The only cure for limerence is to enter something like a marriage or go NC.

*****

Have you considered asking your confessor if your M is sacramental? Isn't confession totally confidential? I understand that's a big issue for you, but you probably have the resources you need to resolve the question. If the confessional isn't as inviolate as I think it is, there are web-based ways to ask priests your question with a throw-away email address - just search on 'ask a priest' (no quotes)..

My W won't actually tell me her feelings because we hardly see each other; when we do, the kids are with us and won't leave us alone; and my W stifles all of her feelings. So... I read books and guess at her feelings.

And those--admittedly--sound awful! Here, though, is a complaint only an autist would dare to make: feelings like those described are completely irrational!

Actually, I can't really say that you're entirely "wrong" in representing my approach, although I think that's about the most callous way of representing it.

I would say: My friendship is a good for me. My wife opposes this just as fervently. We have conflicting emotions. So, those cancel each other out. Therefore, what's logic have to say about the situation. Oh! Look: Logic says safeguards, boundaries, transparency, sincere intentions, and improved marital health should all together remove risk. Therefore, the light of logic leaves us with: I have justified feelings that the friendship resuming would be a good, and my wife has unjustified feelings that the friendship resuming would be alarming. Therefore, the conclusion we reach is: Friendship = OK.

One of the better tests of ethics is: If, in a conflict between two parties, you didn't know which party you represent, would you still find plausible justification for the course being recommended. If I didn't know whether I was the H or the W in the scenario I just presented, I can honestly say that the course I recommend seems fair, either way.

So I don't think it's wrong!

How is your friend irreplaceable?

If you knew her, you would know. She's a person--and a special one, at that. I ask you not to degrade her as merely a set of reducible attributes to me.

How are you not a 'cake eater' - keeping spouse and ap?

Because I am not claiming the friendship can stay disordered. I am committed through-and-through to positive change. Rightful ordering.

You can make new friends.

I have responded to this objection elsewhere. I don't expect my answer to satisfy you any more here. In essence: (A) In 49.5 years of postnatal life minus 18 years of childhood, I have made 2 friends: my W and my OW. The math looks shitty for my odds of making new friends--leastwise, anytime soon. Besides, even if I did, my new friend(s) wouldn't be my OW. She is special to me.

Of note: right now, I am barely scraping by on the thinnest of longshot hope of R with my friend as well as my W. My M isn't healed, so I get little support from it. Plus, the biggest sources of stress for me right now are matters that it's awkward for me to bring to my wife as crocodile tears rain down. Imagine: Please, W of mine: comfort me as I weep over grieving the loss of access to another W as you required of me during M healing!

People in this situation might ordinarily bring their cares to a great friend. Who's my great friend? Oh yeah! My OW! The one I'm forbidden to contact! People in this situation might bring their cares to a counselor. (A.) I had shitty rapport with my IC (but, admittedly, that doesn't mean I couldn't find someone else.) However, even then, (B.) ICs (i.e. "friends" who charge co-pays) are available on set schedules. Weekly. Maybe monthly. But my unmoored emotional state swings wildly these days from minute-to-minute or hour-to-hour. I'm highly mercurial. That hasn't always been true for me. But it is true for me these days. That brings me to AI LLMs. But they're not actually people. I can't get a hug from an AI LLM.

You don't have to stay connected to your ap.

I do. At least insofar as you mean my OW. I continue to deny having had an A. If you didn't need your AP, then good for you. I do. Simple--and dramatic--as that.

These last few posts scream 'limerence!'

Inigo Montoya responds on my behalf: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Limerence applies exclusively to romantic love.

Isn't confession totally confidential?

Yes. However, 2 things: First, priests know a helluvalot more about the Church's teachings than most Catholics--probably myself included. However, not every priest is equally knowledgeable, trustworthy, and equally able to distinguish what the Church teaches from what our society teaches. And if you dispute my characterization of the trustworthiness and ethical character of individual priests as unfair, I'd like to introduce you to a whole bunch of men who were SAed when they were kids. (Full disclosure: I was not one of them.) Second, even if I had a priest with whom I had a good relationship and trusted (I can't say that I especially do), the priest will need to know information that only my W could provide in order to answer my concerns. The issue isn't: What's my W's attitude now toward sex--but what was it when she and I got married.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 5:46 PM, Wednesday, October 14th]

Feelings don't need to be rational. They exist. They just are.

There are "polyamorous" people who think logically about monogamy and decide it doesn't make any rational sense. They permit their partners to have other partners, and then they try to rationalize themselves out of their negative feelings about it, out of the anger, the sadness, the pain, the jealousy, the possessiveness, the insecurity... Because they believe if they only grounded themselves in their thinking, if they were only "enlightened" enough, they could work through it. They so desperately want to feel differently than they do, to give their minds dominion over their hearts. But I have yet to see evidence of any of them succeeding. The "true" poly people, imo, simply don't have the brainfold that causes them to experience ENM as threatening or painful in the first place... This is what leads me to believe that such feeling are not really a matter of choice. Same as your pain at losing the relationship with OW isn't a choice (though you may cling to that pain and try to preserve it, believing it "honors" her in some way that regular grieving and letting go supposedly doesn't.)

Your W will most likely not be inclined to share her feelings with you if you keep trying to rationalize her out of them. That will most likely not feel respectful or considerate or safe or encouraging to her.. It's a little bit of a conundrum, where you have to have the opportunity to demonstrate a change in the way you're approaching her feelings in order for her to take in new data points about what happens when she shares them and update her mental model to "sharing feelings with Unconventional is safe and good things come of it." It can take a long time for change to happen, and many, many data points. But it starts with making less selfish decisions and less of defending the ones you've already made, adopting that posture, letting her know that you're trying to implement that change, asking the right questions and genuinely listening to understand her answers... And then expressing gratitude for and respecting the feelings she does share. And she still may bottle them up and refuse to update that mental model even if you do all these things, but that's the best you can do on your half of things, and you will be able to say you honestly tried.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 5:40 PM, Wednesday, October 14th]

Hikingout,

I appreciate the dialogue. I must admit, that I really had not been focusing or tracking on this topic of "staying friends with OW".

In light of now seeing how that is a major topic for OP, I absolutely agree that his disclosure of the SA is not good at this time. I think in principle, it is warranted, but if he is essentially still purposed to have contact with this woman...it is not the topic to be discussed at moment.

I think he needs to have NC with this woman to demonstrate consideration for his wife. That should be first priority....agreed.

So thank you for helping me see context better here.

Unconventional...whatever you feel you were gaining from you conversations with this woman....find that in your wife, the rightful place for it. You really don't need that friendship, she will survive.

I still think in principle what you did is a valid action, but before addressing that....help your wife start healing by going NC. That is right thing to do.

I have been NC with my OP for about 5 months. I have been white knuckling it the whole time. It's hard to focus. Especially hard these days--not that I have ever been good at focusing. I am in daily agony over the NC. It's practically Seppuku. I am subjecting myself to this torture so my W and M can heal. I half expect I should be shitting diamonds, I'm under so much pressure.

I am hoping my W will grant me some mercy over the pain. I feel like this is all I have to give. If this isn't enough, then there's just no future for... well... at least no future for me.

No amount of reasoning with me will shake me from my OW. Only if I contact her again and she says to me: "Get lost" will I let her go. Then, I will grieve to extinguishment.

Y'all can call me a sick puppy. Or maybe a sick bastard. All you want. But I am on the verge of a breakdown at practically all times, and this is all I have to give. I intermittently have a resting tremor over this.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 6:06 PM, Wednesday, October 14th]

I am in daily agony over the NC

I'm curious if you see your own feelings as rooted in logic?

Yes, actually. I mean... if you're asking: did I reason my way into my feelings toward my OW, my answer would be "no." But if you're asking whether my feelings toward my OW are logical, my answer is: "yes."

[This message edited by Unconventional at 6:09 PM, Wednesday, October 14th]

Elaborate

So let me recap this for you and let you tell me how this makes any logical sense (by the way I wrote this before I just saw the posts between you and morbs where she was already challenging you on this)

You want your wife to do work on sexual trauma, but you are not willing to give her honesty or safety.

You will give up your wife if she doesn’t allow the friendship.

You call her need for you to end this friendship unjustified, yet you have already displayed lack of being able to control your feelings for her. You still demonstrate that in many ways. Yes, you are technically doing it but you are still prioritizing her over your marriage. It doesn’t sound like you have really overcome any romantic desires, maybe you feel you can?

I am not calling you out just to make you feel bad. I am really just restating what you have said because I don’t think you want your marriage.

And it’s understandable, you feel you have had an unfulfilling time in this relationship. And I think that’s why you want your wife to work on her issues presumably.

Honestly, usually the way reconciliation works is the process of building something new with your spouse. It takes dedication of both people wiling to put the relationship first.

But I think it’s very disingenuous of you to expect her to do earnest work while you continue to withhold all this information from her. You do not seem very in touch with anyone’s reality but your own and I think that’s going to make it hard for you to build the relationships you want, with anyone.

You say are not limerant, but yet you did have romantic feelings for your AP. It’s not a switch someone turns off, so to dispel the notion because you think you can regulate yourself is likely self deception. I definitely was and I see it in you even if you are in self denial on it. In fact, I think of your ap wasn’t so adamant about ending contact I am not sure NC would be possible for you.

Be honest with yourself because this picture you have pebbled together takes away parts of the cure for this for your marriage. It takes away the very connection and meeting the needs that you want.

It feels like this sex as an expression of love is the thing that you can point at as an issue, but you have more power in this and more accountability to where your marriage is than you want to maybe admit. You have some of the keys but you are not looking for those.

And think it’s because in an underlying way, what you would do if you couod is an underlying thing that your wife can feel.

No one can blame you for being unhappy in a sexless marriage. Certainly, sex is very important in my own marriage. But you can’t expect your wife to make all the changes without you really digging into your own stuff and providing a safe environment for her to heal, both from your betrayal and the past trauma. She can sense this from a core part of her, I promise you that.

And it just sounds like as long as she does these fixes and allows you your friend then you feel you can be happy. You are kidding yourself, sir. I say that not disrespecting you. I say that to encourage you to respect yourself. When you can do that you can do it for others.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:34 PM, Wednesday, October 14th]

She's a wonderful woman with a troubled past. Her mother conducted serial affairs--which eventually "broke" her father and caused a divorce. The mother continued dating lots of men--never remarrying--and focused virtually all of her attention on her man du jour. My OW was the oldest of 3 kids. The sister was the middle and the youngest a brother. When my OW was growing up, her siblings looked to her to "mother" them. My OW made decisions about whether the youngers could go to parties, etc. My OW's mom was terrible with money--spending whatever the family had on superficial things. The family had nice clothes, but no heat at their home in the winter. My OW's first love was a boy who used to tease her. As they aged, they became friends. Eventually, he used to come over after school and hold my OW in a bed so she could sleep despite terrible anxiety over her parents' divorce. I know it sounds suspicious, but supposedly, they were never sexually intimate. Eventually, he declared that he never loved her; that he only viewed her as a sister. My OW helped him get a girlfriend. Then he began lying to my OW. She ended the friendship. She went into a deep depression that precluded her from dating again for a decade. At 16 years old, she had a fight with her mom over the mom's poor money allocation. The mother threw my OW out of the home. My OW grabbed a trash bag, threw clothes into it, and stormed out the door, riding a bus to another European country to join her father. He was a bouncer (and an alcoholic) who lived in a 16' x 16' room. She had to sleep on the floor. In this new country, she became involved in drama and student government. At one point, she spent a year on secondary school at sea and learned to sail. She graduated from secondary school as valedictorian and class president, having won a regional award for acting in a school drama. She dreamed of university and wanted to study journalism or anthropology. She applied, but then her father died of a ruptured brain aneurysm. She had to return to her home country. She took odd jobs for several years. At one point, while urban exploring with a friend, a stairway she was using collapsed. She broke both legs badly and had to be in a wheelchair for a year. During that time, she was involved in a 2nd romance. His mom was rude to her. My OW taught him to clean and shop and cook--and then, after she became wheelchair bound--he dumped her, saying that he didn't want to hold her back.

She still can't walk well. A surgery could fix her ambulation, but she can't afford the time off from work. Her mother said she would help my OW through a surgery, but never did. My friend wound up taking a job at an odd business: a bakery that also served coffee, cold platters, and dealt in real estate. She eventually learned to do every job there--and got tasked to do them all.

More later, OK? Please give me some time. I'm on a deadline today.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 7:27 PM, Wednesday, October 14th]